AJ posts - Latest Comments

Re: Pacifism Revised

sirnickdon — Fri, 15 Feb 2013 11:16:11 -0000

"How can he WANT one person to act one way, and another to act another?"

There are two accepted theological categories in which this naturally makes sense.

The first is the idea of vocation, where God calls some individuals to be, say, missionaries or monks or pastors and others are free to do whatever they desire: to run an office or play basketball or whatever. If you can accept that this happens, it seems to follow that God will ask some individuals to function differently in the world than others, even though (ideally) they all work in humility and to God's glory, etc.

The second is that of providence. The Old Testament is full of accounts of God using the already wicked desires of individuals and nations for the furtherance of his own goals. After Joseph is reunited w/ his brothers who sold him into slavery, he tells them that what they meant for evil God meant for good (Gen 50ish). Likewise, God uses the Assyrians and Babylonians to cart Israel off into the exile, AND THEN pronounces judgement on the empires for doing the things God used them to do -- he was channeling their rebellion, not causing it. I think the whole world is predicated on this kind of providential arrangement, where God is drawing as much good as possible from human sin and selfishness, so that by God's providence even sinful nonbelievers want (say) a cure to cancer, whether from selfish reasons or altruistic.

When the concepts of vocation and providence are combined, you end up with the framework through which I understand the NT call for Christians to embody what a community under the reign of God looks like. God's reign is established under Christ, guaranteed by the Holy Spirit (who Paul refers to as a "down payment" or "deposit" in, I believe, 1 Corinthians), and, in this "time between the times" instantiated in the church. One day God's kingdom will be fully realized on earth; until then it is the job of the church to proclaim and witness to its reality in the midst of a world that is passing away but still being used of God in providential ways.

Re: Pacifism

Ryan — Sun, 10 Feb 2013 19:45:23 -0000

Definitely read that Yoder book. I just finished it and it really helped answer this question and the issue of finding a "practical, nonviolent response."

Re: Pacifism Revised

AJ Daltorio — Wed, 06 Feb 2013 16:25:57 -0000

Hey Nic, man, great response. That helps me see your position more clearly, especially where you articulate you get your ethics from the NT. As for exegetical arguments, I'm the wrong guy, so I'm not sure I can dive into this with you. But just one challenge I want to raise is this: If God wants to use Pagan authorities to make the world more just, then aren't they doing his will? If so, then oughtn't believers act similarly? How can he WANT one person to act one way, and another to act another?

Re: Pacifism Revised

sirnickdon — Tue, 05 Feb 2013 14:45:50 -0000

Let me play with that dialog a little.

Jeff: But in some situations it is the only way.

Nic: Only way to what?

Jeff: Only way to stop him.

Nic: And that's the main thing Christians are called to do? To police the world, to keep it safe?

Jeff: It's one thing Christians are called to do.

Nic: But what's the main thing?

Jeff: To spread the gospel.

Nic: And doesn't that include living as a people under the lordship of Christ?

Jeff: Does living under the lordship of Christ preclude keeping people safe?

Nic: It precludes keeping people safe in any way that is contrary to the way of Christ.

Jeff: And killing a maniac with a gun is contrary to the way of Christ?

Nic: Killing anyone is contrary to the way of Christ.

Jeff: Then how are we to keep the world safe?

Nic: We are to imitate Christ, who values patience over efficiency. We can't make the world perfect, but we can live faithfully in anticipation of when Christ's reign is made complete.

---

Or, another way to respond is to simply ask, "Where does the New Testament call Christians to police the world?" These arguments from common sense or "what seems right" or from logic aren't persuasive to someone whose ethics are entirely rooted in the New Testament. We need an exegetical argument that God expects Christians to kill in order to make the world safer. Romans 12-13 seems to indicate that God wants to use the (pagan) authorities to make the world relatively less unjust, and to use Christians to reconcile the world to himself. Two different and incompatible missions.

Re: Pacifism

AJ Daltorio — Sun, 03 Feb 2013 18:42:47 -0000

Yo! Thanks for such a well thought-out response. All this good discussion has certainly given me more clarity on the issue.

Re: Pacifism

T. C. Moore — Fri, 01 Feb 2013 10:24:37 -0000

AJ, I think the most practical thing one can do to avoid resorting to violence in a crisis, is three-fold. First, one must not to rule out nonviolent solutions. This might seem obvious, but we often presuppose an all-or-nothing false dichotomy of "do nothing" or commit violence. These are not the only options. Second, we must begin preparing ourselves for nonviolence. We are often unprepared to respond to a crisis with nonviolence because we've never even imagined embodying a nonviolent response. If a person has never even imagined doing something, the likelihood of that person doing it in a high-stress, high-stakes instance are very, very slim. So, we have to begin practicing nonviolence responses before we are faced with an emergency. Third, we must practice listening to and obeying the Holy Spirit. This step is closely related the second step. If we are unaccustomed to hearing the Spirit's voice and obeying the Spirit, then we are much, much less likely to hear and obey the Spirit's guidance in a crisis moment above all the other fearful thoughts we will certainly have. But if one has trained themselves to be more sensitive to the Spirit, there is much higher likelihood of that person hearing and obeying God in an intense moment.

Hope that helps!

Re: Pacifism

Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:12:15 -0000

Yeah, he doesn't really give practical options. This is one of those times when I hope the Spirit would give me the words to say in the moment. Ultimately i'd probably end up trying to make sure my family is able to run away. Maybe i'd stick around to distract the guy while they get away, something like that.

Re: Pacifism

AJ Daltorio — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:42:55 -0000

Woa! Definitely reading that. Gracias.

Re: Pacifism

AJ Daltorio — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:39:51 -0000

Hey Jason, thanks for reading. I'm with you in that I don't know how I could justify taking someone's life before God, but I also couldn't justify not defending someone who was helpless. Until a realistic third option is available, I'd have to go with the lesser of the two evils.

And I think I hear you about most Christians not seeing the value of pacifism. Are you saying we're way too comfortable with violence? If not, could you elaborate?

Re: Pacifism

AJ Daltorio — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:22:50 -0000

Hey, thanks for reading and for sharing. I agree with almost everything Greg says here, but he still doesn't offer a realistic way around using violence. It would be the last thing I would want to do, but if I had to in order to protect someone, I would.

Re: Pacifism

Jason — Wed, 30 Jan 2013 23:01:14 -0000

I think it's perfectly rational to question your own sanity if you're one to believe that to take up violence even in such an extreme situation would be less than Jesus' desire for any of his followers. Just the same, I don't know how I could justify taking someone else's life before God, regardless of the extremity of the situation and what/who's life were at stake. A powerful question, I believe, that I keep asking myself is, "Why as a Christian do I fear death so much?" I only hope I could prevent the death of others, especially my wife and kids. Just the same, best a man with a gun don't come to my house cause I may change my mind.

Lastly, most of Christ's followers, unfortunate or not, don't see the value of pacifism. This I don't think means they cease being His follower, yet they grossly miss the mark, in my opinion.

Re: Pacifism

T. C. Moore — Wed, 30 Jan 2013 21:55:13 -0000

Yoder answered your question too. http://amzn.com/0836136039

Re: Pacifism

Wed, 30 Jan 2013 15:17:00 -0000

This guy is smarter than me so ill just link to his response though I'd guess you've seen it already: http://reknew.org/2012/11/v...

Re: Tell the Troof

Sarah — Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:17:01 -0000

Lovely.

Re: What’s Holding Me Back?

logicaltuv — Sun, 06 Jan 2013 12:29:04 -0000

a good writer can make a deep paradigm shift almost easy to access with a clear progression of thought. This is really good.

Re: Grace Does Not Make Sense

sgilberttweets — Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:25:45 -0000

What a beautiful representation of grace. Thanks for sharing. :)

Re: About AJ

Connie — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 01:10:13 -0000

Hey, AJ. Thanks for the reply! I so appreciate your offer! I just think I'm to the point where dialoguing about it (except possibly with a therapist, ha) is likely to have little effect. ;) Oh and I'm way past skeptical about fundamentalism but in a different way. I grew up in fundamentalism (of the independent Baptist variety) but have since learned how wrongheaded and damaging it can be. I read Jerry Bridges' book Transforming Grace (been out a long time now) and it had a big effect on me. Anyway, blessings!

Re: About AJ

AJ Daltorio — Sun, 07 Oct 2012 00:38:36 -0000

Hey Connie, I hear you. To be honest, I think I'm mainly skeptical of fundamentalism. Not sure if that's where you are at, but regardless, if you ever want someone to dialogue with, I am ALWAYS down. My email is adaltorio100@yahoo.com. Hope you're having an awesome day!

Re: About AJ

Connie — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:04:13 -0000

Just discovered you through one of your comments on RHE's blog. I love that you put your skepticism "right out there." I so far have held back from writing much about my disillusionment (I'm way past skeptical even). I guess it's because I get so tired of dealing with the "you just have to trust" responses (uh, that would be what I'm having a problem with, hello). Anyway I admire that.

Re: Oh Heavens (Part three)

AJ Daltorio — Mon, 13 Aug 2012 14:02:43 -0000

Yeah, there are so many unknowns. Part of the reason I wrote this is that we need to be more comfortable with not knowing certain things.

Re: About AJ

Dick Sheppard — Sun, 12 Aug 2012 12:36:08 -0000

Your a WONDERFUL young man and I'm proud to say, Love you Tony... ( I don't know how I missed this before )

Re: Oh Heavens (Part three)

Jane Fairbairn — Thu, 09 Aug 2012 21:52:54 -0000

We don't know, do we, if perhaps Jared had a lucid moment or two in which he regretted his past behavior and asked Christ to come back into his heart.

Re: Undercover Christians

AJ Daltorio — Sun, 03 Jun 2012 20:47:42 -0000

Hi Jess,
Thank you for your kind, encouraging words. I totally feel you on not being able to admit you were a Christian. Honestly, I still struggle with that from time to time because I want to be loved and accepted by everyone.
Make me a deal. If you ever find yourself praying for courage, go ahead and ask for it for two.

Re: Undercover Christians

jess — Fri, 01 Jun 2012 22:16:00 -0000

wow this is great, thank you. I'm definitely guilty of this. in high school I know I confused a lot of my un-believing friends. they knew I went to church and loved Jesus, but when they asked me what my"religion" was, I couldn't bring myself to say that I was a Christian. I would tell them that I didn't have a religion, which is technically true - I have a relationship with Christ, but still. I should have stood up for authentic Christianity instead of being embarrassed of, like you said, being clumped together with gnarly outspoken people who claim to love God, yet hate people. you're an amazing writer, by the way. also, it's encouraging to know that there is at least one man after God's own heart out in the world. i was starting to think they went extinct.

Re: Oh Heavens (Part three)

Erikaott — Thu, 31 May 2012 13:02:42 -0000

John Calvin assisted in the execution of many people who opposed the church/correct doctrine. This has been something interesting for me to learn... That one of the historical church leaders who had strong beliefs and was saved, also had a life (in my opinion) full of sin, pride, and severe error. If we are confident that the mega jerk John Calvin is in heaven with Jesus, why do we doubt the Jareds? I think it is partly because Calvin's life included praise of God (which doesn't negate his overwhelming faults, but does demonstrate he trusted God). It's not so much that Jared is a jerk, but that his life LACKS things that show he is trusting Jesus for salvation. Knowing Jesus personally trumps any fault we have because he died for our every sin- and his grace makes it possible for anyone to be reconciled to God. I also think it is very difficult to know Jesus and NOT be transformed, which makes me puzzled to know Calvin was a murder and Jareds everywhere say they know Jesus, but you see no evidence of a life where God is present.